2020 has thrown loads at us a worldwide pandemic, an financial recession, and a social justice awakening.
There’s a ton of data flying at us and it is robust to know what to hearken to, and who may also help make sense of all of it, particularly relating to social justice.
So now what?
[MUSIC]
Today we’re gonna discuss what I contemplate an important podcast of 2020.
And it is known as, we’re having a second and we have got the creator bear Tim de Thurston with us.
So bear tuned that you’ve got labored at this intersection of race and know-how for over a decade.
and have been, you realize such an necessary voice in serving to the digital world perceive these problems with racism in America extra deeply.
So inform us about how we’re having a second happened and what you hope it may possibly contribute to the dialog.>> Jason, thanks a lot for having me.
Thank you for the large, vastly good belongings you simply stated.
About my podcast that’s precisely what I needed folks to assume everybody who has a podcast desires somebody such as you to say what you simply stated about mine.
So, simply appreciation on that, when it comes to how this present happened and even what it’s.
I needed to create one thing that captured the second.
I really feel like we’re in a defining second.
Things really feel acquainted, but additionally doubtlessly totally different in a gorgeous means, when it comes to how we will use this compound set of crises to do one thing totally different and having a pandemic and like a racial justice rebellion on the identical time.
That’s a fairly uncommon factor.
So, my mates over at I coronary heart podcasts.
had been checking in with me as a result of I’ve one other present prepping with them.
And they form of floated the thought like, Hey, would you need to write a sequence of essays about your ideas on what’s taking place proper now?
And I’m like, You imply like Federalist Papers like, you discovered the entire like Alexander Hamilton sound.
Let’s go And as a substitute of it simply being my voice, what I felt was a part of the story of what is been taking place is lacking when it comes to the historic context, when it comes to what’s taking place on the bottom, and when it comes to the place we’d go together with it.
So I talked to folks on the bottom from Germany To Minneapolis and locations in between.
And I attempt to fill in what I contemplate to be the blanks in each the social media and mainstream media narrative about how the pandemic has hit black folks in another way, about who has a proper to protest, about simply what defund the police means.
And about what the position of white folks each, within the US and much past, may and needs to be on this second.
There is that this humble need.
[LAUGH]
[LAUGH]
There’s this second within the podcast the place you are in entire meals in Burbank, and you are like, we’re out at cake like March 13th.
Like Whole Foods runs out of cake.
Yeah.
And you are like, what is going on on?
Why is like anger and yoga pants and every kind of issues and at what level did you begin to notice that it is a second?
How did this unfold for you?
Yeah.
Could you discuss a bit bit about that within the podcast, however I’d love so that you can kind of discuss how this has form of unfolded because it’s gone.
Thank you for asking, and thanks for triggering me with my very own recollection of making an attempt to buy on the Whole Foods on pandemic freak-out day, in my dwelling right here in Los Angeles.
This second unfolded for me, beginning in mid-March, when it grew to become clear that this factor known as COVID-19 was actual.
I had been on my closing, apparently flight of the yr from New York again dwelling to LA it was Wednesday, March 11.
And on that flight, I used to be listening to an epidemiologist Dr. Michael Osterholm, who’s turn into my go to supply For all issues COVID.
And my fiance and I cut up our headphones, and had been listening to him on the Joe Rogan podcast and he was simply dropping gems of unadulterated information.
And it was nothing we had seen or heard in another type of media but.
And it was sobering.
So, that we landed in Los Angeles as totally different folks Then those who took off from New York.
And from that time ahead, it was like fill up on stuff from the native ironmongery store.
Get the bathroom paper like everyone else.
compete with the squirrels for leaves within the yard in case we run out of bathroom paper, typical stuff and begin to make sacrifices and begin to brace ourselves.
As every part shut down as my very own enterprise shut down because the native companies round us shut down, and we began to really feel the sense of sacrifice and seriousness, and in that set the stage for May 25 [LAUGH].
And you realize, as we’re all.
Facing this dreadful international pandemic, it is also turn into clear that the US is not actually on the entrance foot with it, and that there are racial over and undertones when it comes to who’s struggling most in our nation from the illness who’s dying, who’s overexposed, and there are poor folks, and there are folks of colour.
And so towards that backdrop of unequal sacrifice from the pandemic, enters Amy Cooper in Central Park along with her faux name to 911 on Kristin Cooper, the birdwatcher and Derek Chauvin and his gradual homicide George Floyd, so it would not you realize, folks describe this summer time as just like the killing of the George Floyd second.
And I feel that places lots of strain on George Floyd by no means requested for any of this.
I feel issues started for me not less than, with the pandemic, beginning to reveal how deep the cracks in our society actually work.
And then we simply fell into the chasm with the actions of Derek Chauvin that day.
And you stated, you wrote in your whiteboard.
So shout out you continue to have a whiteboard someplace again there, that you simply wrote we’re having totally different pandemics in episode one, you talked about that.
Tell us a bit bit about that since we’re nonetheless speaking about pandemic.
Yeah, America has had this
Interesting relationship with COVID-19 as a result of for some time there we simply determined we had been over it.
And it is identical to we we canceled the pandemic we’re shifting on.
We’re going to make like that spoon within the matrix and simply say like there isn’t a COVID and need it away.
And COVID no didn’t neglect about us though we tried to neglect about it.
But to start with, what I meant by experiencing totally different pandemics is we skilled lots of rhetoric on the high and fairly optimistic rhetoric I’ll add.
That this was gonna be one thing that might carry us collectively.
That COVID-19 was the alien invasion
We’ve been eager for to some extent to unite our varied tribes right here on earth and definitely within the US to face this frequent enemy.
And that didn’t occur as a result of the programs that we now have in place to guard us from COVID-19 don’t deal with us equally.
And so you’ve gotten On the entrance finish of the illness when it comes to who’s overexposed based mostly on jobs based mostly on residing circumstances based mostly on pre current well being, that’s not equal on who has entry to what high quality of therapy.
Are you going to a public hospital?
Are you going to a rural hospital or are you going to a really effectively outfitted, personal hospital with extra tools and that decrease affected person physician ratio.
And in some kind of restoration, financially, from this publicity.
All these hit us very in another way.
And they hit individuals who have already been hit by a system established for tons of of years that we have all been born into, that subjugates us to extra struggling than others.
And that underlying pandemic that preceded COVID-19 Is the systemic racism that we have all grown up in, which makes certain we now have much less financial alternative for some, much less high quality healthcare for some, fewer jobs for some, much less responsive authorities for some.
So COVID shouldn’t be the identical for various communities though it was offered to us to start with.
As this nice alternative to come back collectively and this virus comes for end result, it comes for us all but it surely would not attain us all on the identical depth or on the identical price.
Let’s discuss a number of the different episodes right now.
There’s lots of good things that may be very useful.
This making sense of lots of these items.
There are lots of combined messages flying round social media greater than wherever, proper in fact, however like I stated, I’m you deconstruct lots of issues that occurred on this podcast.
I want we may undergo all of them however let’s choose a few them and also you give folks a style of this one is the Amy Cooper.
Incident as a result of you possibly can have a look at this by various totally different lenses, however you actually broke down the truth that, you know how that she weaponized her phrases and never solely did however she knew weaponize them very successfully.
And I feel that open this up incident as much as make it extra comprehensible for everyone of what the actual Issue and drawback was I imply most individuals can see it on the floor however yeah, a bit bit sum that up for the viewers.
There’s there’s much more beneath the floor and a yr in the past I gave a TED discuss known as deconstruct racism one headline at a time, and it was centered on These seemingly peaceful acts of finally violence, which is why persons are calling the police on black folks and that is usually a violent and even lethal end result, definitely disproportionately so when regulation enforcement is dropped at bear on folks of colour within the US due to their historical past.
I discussed earlier.
So for me, the purpose of this sequence is at all times like set context, break issues down, deconstruct, as you stated.
And the Amy Cooper second for me is so revealing, as a result of that is the context of the pandemic.
This factor which is already ripping our nation aside unnecessarily Yeah, my dad And, you realize, the best way I put it within the present was, somebody in America determined that we weren’t going to fall to COVID that if we had been going to fall goes to result in one thing extra homegrown, one thing extra native, one thing like good quaint American racism.
And who higher to hold that message than a white lady in yoga pants with a canine in Central Park and an entitlement complicated.
Like turned as much as 11 and it was so crystal clear.
She was virtually like she was forged, alongside along with her unrelated fellow New Yorker, Christian Cooper being the least threatening model of a black man we may ever probably conjure up.
Harvard educated birdwatching, Audubon board member.
Come on now.
And he is simply asking her to place her canine on a leash.
And she’s asking him doubtlessly to die, proper to name the police on him with a made up risk that all of us noticed.
It’s simply it is so not often so crystal clear.
So the item lesson is in stark aid.
I’m going to name the police and inform them an African American man is threatening my life.
That is a dying sentence.
For so many black folks, that’s an tried lynching.
That takes us again to the Emmet Till days on this nation, which we prefer to assume we have moved past.
But then she reminds us that no.
And though her 911 name didn’t end result And anybody being bodily harmed, a special 911 name on the exact same day in Minneapolis did.
And so I feel there is a poetic linkage between the AMA Cooper who’s a singular particular person however consultant of a extra systemic drawback and the actions of a Derek Chavin.
How about Defund the police.
Yeah, you took one episode.
And if there’s one episode that it is like for those who do not for those who solely hear to at least one episode of this, I’d say hearken to that episode.
Listen to all of them.
There’s six.
It’s It’s six episode.
Six episode, sure.
Listen to all six, for those who do not hear to at least one hearken to that one since you had been skeptical of this concept at first to you had been like did a did a phrase you realize like Davi Diggs like and and also you had been trustworthy about that and however you kind of deconstruct that concept to which I feel was extremely useful and understanding.
Why there’s some usefulness to this concept and what it really means and why it does not imply like your group goes to be thrown into chaos.
It really means one thing way more accountable.
And I really like that you simply use the instance of the checks and balances within the structure to tie to this and put some framework round it.
So Give folks only a style.
Just a little style this man’s bread is sort of a listening social gathering for my very own.
[LAUGH] Like a folks singer like this subsequent observe simply got here to me sooner or later after I realized that, 54% of my metropolis’s finances in Los Angeles was going to the LAPD.
And if nearly all of your metropolis’s finances goes to the police then you definately dwell in a police state.
And that is not something any of us has ever taught.
But it is true that the primary money outlay by lots of our cities is to the police division.
And so I feel many people are mathematically residing in police states, although none of us consciously made that alternative.
It’s a stark alternative once you notice all the opposite sources, or I ought to say makes use of of funds that we may have.
So this episode begins with form of that reality, which was startling to me and I contemplate myself somebody fairly knowledgeable about politics and authorities.
And there’s a lot I do not know.
So I needed to humble myself earlier than the listener as effectively and like, I haven’t got this all discovered I’m on this journey with you after which I needed to, seize this concept that we are literally burdening regulation enforcement in an identical strategy to that which we burden academics.
Right?
We ask this one occupation to cowl for all the opposite lapses in our society and so we are saying hey, Cops.
I need you to cope with murderers and rapists, and arranged crime and terrorism.
Check, verify, verify.
Also wellness checks for the aged and also you’re additionally gonna run the Crossing Guard Department as effectively.
And you need to be in class in case youngsters get a bit rowdy in class, which is what youngsters in class do.
Can you do all that in addition to care for the Homeless state of affairs that we’re having and noise complaints on high of all these issues.
And it is simply an unreasonable expectation, as a result of we overburden this explicit a part of society with duty, and we below equip them with instruments to resolve them, we give them weapons.
And badges and people badges act as shields in actually important methods, as a result of it finally ends up shielding these folks with the final word energy of life and dying from any type of accountability.
And to me that rang hole as a result of the rhetoric of this nice nation
Is constructed on.
In reality, the muse of the nation is all about accountability.
Like we do not need anyone with an excessive amount of energy.
We have people marching only a few weeks earlier than these Derrick Shovin Black Lives Matter marches, speaking about tyranny and accountability and overreaching authorities.
And right here we now have a complete division of the federal government construction actually designed to have the ability to overreach On a daily foundation the place extreme drive is constructed into the usage of drive as a result of virtually talking, none of those cops actually pays a worth for the overuse of their energy.
So that did not strike me as what America is meant to be about.
We overthrew a king for stuff like that, but we give our sheriffs and our deputies and our officers The energy of an authoritarian to some extent when it comes to their capacity to be held accountable for his or her actions.
So we needs to be higher than that we needs to be who we are saying we’re.
All proper, how about yet one more instance
One extra [LAUGH].
All proper.
Grammar and phrase alternative, in fact is an editor proper as that is one in every of my favorites.
You discuss loads about this and in very like authentic and really highly effective methods so suck so let’s go into that little.>>Yeah, and I feel I’m gonna rapidly add on it is so exhausting to love summarize a complete episode however for the defund the police Yeah, this is the core takeaway messages.
We needs to be spending our cash to resolve issues in a means that does not require us to name the police within the first place.
The greatest folks to do wellness checks are well being care employees, one of the best folks to work with youngsters in faculties or counselors Social Workers and so on.
So that is the place the cash ought to go.
And the grounding train I did in that episode was to take folks into the halls of energy in LA for instance as a result of that is the place I dwell, the place Black Lives Matter activists and plenty of group teams.
Put collectively a folks’s finances to symbolize what we thought our price needs to be as mirrored within the finances.
And it additionally, I needed folks to grasp that this name to defund the police is not some new factor and it is not quick sighted.
It’s backed up by proof by calls for from folks purchase years of labor.
And it is a defund refund combo.
Take cash from right here on this overburdened division and transfer it over right here to extra expert, higher skilled, extra accountable components of our authorities.
So that is most likely the quicker strategy to cowl that one for you.
Doesn’t imply no police.
No.
And I’ve the police do the issues that they are one of the best at doing.
That’s how I consider it.
Yeah.
And there’s Yeah, there are definitely individuals who assume we shouldn’t have any police in any way.
I’m not a kind of folks and I feel by and enormous, the oldsters who’re calling for defunding police We’ll acknowledge that there’s some room for an armed response.
There’s individuals who want to analyze murders.
There’s a set of expertise a specific set of expertise to quote and Louise’s character that shall be required.
But we’re asking them many different issues that aren’t
So, when it comes to grammar, this was the that is the shock episode of the sequence.
So if there’s one which tries to seize probably the most in a single episode is the defund the police episode?
If there’s one which I did not see coming, it is the grammar episode and I sat with you don Israel who’s a professor Of writing and language on the new faculty and CUNY in New York City.
And this was about how we discuss George Floyd and the way we discuss police violence.
And there is a passive strategy to seek advice from it, the place lots of us have been saying George Floyd was killed, or extra generically An officer concerned capturing.
And these statements, these phrases and these sentences do not have an actor.
They have a sufferer, they’ve a passive motion.
But in these assemble of the language we find yourself Relieving the accountable social gathering of duty.
That accountability I talked about earlier that we regularly do not apply to police, we do not apply within the language once we discuss in regards to the actions of police.
So, the cleanest strategy to describe the core, pivotal second of this summer time is Derek Chava and killed George Floyd.
And that appropriately lays duty for the accountable events actions and locations George Floyd in context once we do not do this.
And we are saying issues like, Brianna Taylor was killed.
Briana Taylor died George Florida then it begs this query like what had been they doing to get themselves killed?
And we begin to interrogate a lifeless particular person as a substitute of the residing one that ended their lives.
And so the best way we discuss, I feel defines a lot about how we perceive the world.
Same with the best way we write and if we will use our phrases higher Then I feel we will additionally dwell higher.
So let’s additionally plug I need to plug your ted discuss from final yr deconstruct racism one headline at a time which which focuses on this concept of language as effectively.>> Big language nerd.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is good.
It’s good work.
And that is one that’s one other one other piece of proper now the place there’s lots of.
There’s lots of sense of mainstream media being a part of the issue and never sufficient a part of the answer.
And so that you handled it in your TED discuss, however I’d love to speak with you as somebody who’s labored in digital media, for the previous Couple many years, you realize, the place do you’re feeling like we’re at when it comes to digital media and since clearly what you probably did this this podcast we’re having a second actually is digital media proper?
Where are we at when it comes to digital media and Social media enjoying an element for good or are they you realize, I’m inflicting extra issues than they’re.
Then they’re serving to as a result of it is a massive The query we had on this present we had Ruth Benjamin, our e-book race after know-how.
We talked in regards to the ways in which Tech has really deepen the racial divide, proper?
Despite the narrative in Silicon Valley on the contrary many instances about being kind of this kind of the nice savior, proper?
Of of all issues in society, There are methods tech has made issues the truth is a lot worse.
Where are you at when it comes to the place what social media and digital media are doing and have performed?
There’s there is a little bit of each and I feel the hurt is necessary to acknowledge as a result of we now have It’s a for those who’re within the enterprise of one in every of these platforms, you’ve gotten a virtually not possible process, as a result of a part of the best way you arrange your small business is to reveal folks with out context to battle?
And two conflicting concepts with no segues in any way, like one second.
We’re speaking about Hamilton, the following Nazis run into your home, like, emotionally that is what’s taking place.
And we’re plucking and selecting actually inflammatory moments and simply launching them into our psyche into our brains and into our hearts and And that is jarring.
And the society has not been requested to maneuver at such velocity.
with so few transitions earlier than books take time to learn even within the 80s we needed to bodily stand up and stroll over to the TV to vary the channel.
And now all these items collapses in on itself.
And so a child image jumps to a police homicide video jumps to some form of troll Jumps by a very cute Tick Tock video of a child dancing and like what are you presupposed to do with that it is actually psychologically exhausting.
So I considerably empathize with folks operating these programs as a result of they’ve a considerably not possible process.
But additionally they took it on they usually’re making some huge cash in making an attempt to take it on.
So they bear a few of that duty.
So there’s hurt In all of that battle, within the trolling, within the cultural collisions which can be being compelled on us in some methods with out our consent, after which such as you stated there’s good.
We have the facility of concepts and discover and publicity of these in ways in which wouldn’t have occurred if we simply relied on a handful of editors and producers.
To inform us what the information was.
And to inform us what’s necessary.
I used to be in a position to paint an image, of what these protests actually seem like in my podcast, by speaking to individuals who had been main these protests.
And letting them communicate for themselves at size.
Rather than going for the helicopter view from tons of of meters away with a giant telephoto lens, With the headline looting, looting, looting, looting, looting, and I used to be in a position to recontextualize that time period looting, to say, Well, what in regards to the $1.5 trillion tax cuts?
What in regards to the dispossession of land and light-weight from the indigenous nations that pre existed the nation of the United States?
Is that not additionally a type of looting?
What in regards to the corruption round ventilators that is been revealed By professional publica prior to now few weeks, is that not authorities corruption and looting?
But these folks do not get that decrease third title on the information once we discuss them.
So the facility of digital media to permit somebody like me, to permit activists to talk for themselves, can be actually a brand new factor and a strong factor and an amazing factor and I’ve no simple reply.
Good or unhealthy, proper or flawed.
It’s totally different, it is difficult and it is pushing us to attempt to be higher in ways in which we’ve not needed to combat so exhausting for earlier than.
So all of us are studying as we attempt to develop into this bizarre future.
All proper so it is a six episode podcast is finished you possibly can go and hearken to all six episodes you realize in all places you discover podcasts.
But you additionally talked about your second of like this is not only a second it is a motion to borrow Hamilton thanks tip limb in whereas Miranda Of you are gonna take this a step additional, you’ve gotten that, you reveal that within the final episode of the podcast.
So inform us about that and the place you are gonna go subsequent with this.
Yeah, I’m drained [LAUGH] In so some ways.
I need to like say that and to acknowledge that.
If you are watching this and also you’re drained such as you’re a standard human being that is exhausting.
And a part of the exhaustion is a sense of disempowerment of being on the receiving finish of selections and selections which can be made on our behalf, however not- Fully within the names that we bear that we might need.
And so I’m inquisitive about not going to mattress indignant as a result of I simply watched the information and having nightmares about actual life, which is a waste of dream area.
I’m inquisitive about reclaiming the concept on this democracy we the folks have the facility Reclaiming this phrase citizen, which has been used a lot to divide us and verify individuals who do not have the best authorized standing, and as a substitute interpreted as a verb, which I feel is extra of the spirit in a democracy, inviting us all to take part and declare that energy we now have.
So I’m making a Show.
It’s known as How to Citizen with Bear Today.
And we’re going to reimagine citizen as a verb collectively and reclaim our energy and go in regards to the enterprise of self authorities and group management and outcomes that profit the numerous, one step at a time.
And within the present, we’re bringing folks on.
That are doing this work which have made some change of their a part of the world, of their firm, of their group, of their metropolis and their nation.
Not simply bankers, however doers and most excitingly, we’re supplying you with an opportunity to roll up your sleeves and do one thing.
Because for those who’re in any respect like me, you are bored with screaming into your pillows at night time.
Or 3PM, whichever the case could also be, and also you’re able to be requested to do one thing.
But what’s that?
The information shouldn’t be telling us lots of our elected leaders aren’t telling us both we needs to be telling them.
We needs to be telling one another so you must really feel higher after an episode of How to citizen was higher right now than a typical episode of reports.
And you must really feel you’ve gotten a channel for a few of that power that I do know I really feel the place like, I need to do one thing.
But what’s it and do not simply inform me to vote.
Super necessary to try this, particularly with an election developing, however we have got to be vigilant and artistic and related to one another All the time that’s the level>>All one of the best actions begin in a neighborhood ,they begin on the grass roots ,they begin in a group and that is the place actual change occurs you realize ,for certain how so okay how People that need to tune in, how are they going to have the ability to study it?
when can they they study it.
This present launches on August 27.
But the trailer needs to be up every week forward of that.
Again, the title is citizen with veriton day And you will discover it at Berra right now.com you possibly can join my emails, if you wish to be among the many first to know and for those who’re actually excited to be related, I’m going to drop, my quantity like you possibly can really textual content me, too 2028948844 put the phrase citizen in it.
And I’ll let you realize, proper when that feed is dwell except it is three within the morning I’m gonna, that is impolite.
I’m not going to ship a textual content at three within the morning, however I’m utilizing this service which permits me to have conversations at a bigger scale.
And shouldn’t be as abusive as social media.
So for those who’re feeling like letting me into your cellphone 2028948844.
Barrington de Thurston.
Thanks for being right here.
What a pleasure.
We may discuss.
We may go into extra of those episodes, however I’ll ship folks off to hearken to them for themselves after which hopefully, bounce into the brand new citizen podcast to as a result of that is some thrilling stuff as effectively.
So may I say yet one more factor?
Yeah, please.
Okay.
So I used to be I used to be reflecting on the episode that you simply did with Professor Benjamin.
And what’s often because you’ve gotten such a tech oriented viewers, I’d love folks to consider this.
Lots of the innovation that is promised to us by know-how and their buyers Is constructed on knowledge.
And it is the thought of crunching on huge quantity of information to make future selections whether or not it is constructed on facial recognition, predictive analytics, algorithmic interpretation of previous behaviors, and selections, hiring, for instance.
But our historical past as we have discovered more and more this summer time Is corrupted by systemic abuses of energy within the type of racism or misogyny there is a checklist.
And in order that knowledge is itself biased.
And if we will construct predictive programs on a historical past that we acknowledge is unfair a system for instance, that prevented somebody like me from shopping for a home in sure neighborhoods.
Therefore, I haven’t got homeownership in my household’s historical past to the diploma that you simply would possibly.
And we have got to construct actual innovation which might break from that historical past.
If your innovation depends upon doubling down in a corrupt historical past, then you definately’re simply codifying oppression and we now have a possibility once more to.
Speak a brand new sentence to jot down really liberating code that will open up the doorways for extra of us, not fewer.
And in order that’s that.
That’s what I need from know-how, which is simply one other type of expression.
It’s not that magical.
It’s ink and paper.
It’s ones and zeros, it is code and servers.
But if we hold repeating previous sentences, we’re gonna be residing prior to now simply with higher robots
